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New consensus request

I am here to try to make a new consensus. In WP:NBAPOSITION, if the player has three positions, we would be required to put Guard / small forward. I want to change that. I want to be more specific with it. I want people to understand what kind of guard, forward, or whatever kind of position he is. For example, a guy asks, “Why is it listed as Guard / small forward? I don’t know what kind of guard he is. Is he a point guard? Shooting guard? Both?” That’s why I want to be more specific. I know that some Wikipedians understand what kind of guard he is, but there are some other Wikipedians that don’t understand. I want them to understand. One guy said that we only list two positions maximum due to the amount of space. We are allowed to use that space, and it doesn’t affect anything. The benefit is that other people will understand what kind of whatever position they are. What I think is that from now on, if a player is a PG/SG/SF, we should list Point guard / shooting guard / small forward, or if he’s more of a SG than a PG than we could list Shooting guard / point guard / small forward. Thank you for understanding. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 05:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment WP:NBAPOSITION currently reads:

For players that play three or more positions, a generic position is generally used to limit the display to two positions.

This was discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 30 § Generic guards and forwards.@Sbaio, Rikster2, DaHuzyBru, and Banan14kab: Pinging you as prior participants in that discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: Notification of this discussion was left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association.—Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I am still for avoiding three positions in the infobox. DaHuzyBru (talk) 08:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
I bet you didn’t even read my whole message ReaganHoang10 (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
I even explained that I requested this because I wanted people to understand better, and y’all ain’t even talking about that?!? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ ReaganHoang10 (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Comment Current examples include Gary Payton II and Bruce Brown (basketball).—Bagumba (talk) 08:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Nationality

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Consensus#Notability (Basketball roster nationality note), Taiwanese players' nationality in roster of Taipei Fubon Braves should use "TPE" (Special:PermaLink/1130879549#Current roster), but User Kazuha1029 changed "TPE" to "TWN" (Special:Diff/1131610268), and removed Template:Basketball roster nationality note (Special:Diff/1132423355). Lin Chih-chieh's nationality in FIBA.basketball is "Chinese Taipei" and "TPE" ([1], [2]). Also see User talk:Tywu99#Incorrect usage of TPE flags and User talk:安狄#Incorrect usage of TPE flags. 寒吉 (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Justus Hollatz

Can anyone review this page and move to mainspace? Playing for Germany at the FIBA World Cup, and passes GNG with significant coverage.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Another RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Positional order in infobox

Hi! I've been having an ongoing disagreement on my talk page on whether players' primary position or most recent position goes first in the infobox. My main concern is retired players because I know current players' positions are somewhat fluid. I don't see any guidelines on this at WP:NBAPOSITION, but with nearly every page I've viewed, the primary position seems to be listed first, and I assumed that was the general consensus. If anyone has any insight on this I would appreciate it :) JAX4981 (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

We’ll see what the people have to say. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
It used to be that players like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were only shown as SG, but it seems that SF was added at some point because they finished their career there. So the first question is whether to list minor positions for retired players at all, before even considering the order. —Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Right, and I personally think they should be, but that is obviously not for me to decide. My main concern is just the litany of positional changes ReaganHoang10 has made, including changing Carmelo Anthony from SF/PF to PF/SF, Udonis Haslem from PF to C/PF, Serge Ibaka from PF/C to C/PF, and several others. I disagree with the changes, but I just wanted to see what others think. JAX4981 (talk) 21:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
For current players I put their most recent position. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 01:21, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
FAs count as current players ReaganHoang10 (talk) 01:21, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough I suppose, but is that even the policy on current players? Because it seems like you've just decided this on your own. My point still stand on the first 2. JAX4981 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Since the last discussion was over, I’m gonna talk about this one.
Let’s make it reasonable and simple. If that player is active in the NBA/overseas or if he’s a free agent, we have to put his most recent position. If the player is retired, you are more than welcome to put his most common position that he played in his career.
For example, if Carmelo Anthony never retired, we have to put Power forward / small forward. If he’s retired, in which he already is, you are more than welcome to put Small forward / power forward. Same with Udonis Haslem. Since Serge Ibaka is a free agent and that he’s not retired, we put Center / power forward since center was his most recent position. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 21:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm returning to this because it appears that ReaganHoang10 is actively changing positions based on their own preference for which position goes first, and I don't think there was ever a consensus reached. I could've missed something though. If anyone sees this feel free to chime in. I have no idea how to get people to see this though. JAX4981 (talk) 23:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
@JAX4981: No consensus has been reached so at this point it looks like ReaganHoang10 is just ignoring everyone and is continuing to be WP:DISRUPTIVE. This has been discussed at WT:NBA and WT:BBALL (discussion below). You can always report the editor at an appropriate noticeboard and let administrators deal with him. – sbaio 16:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
@ReaganHoang10: Courtesy ping. Can you comment? Thanks. —Bagumba (talk) 05:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
False accusation btw. “DISRUPTIVE” editing? I don’t vandalize wtf??? ReaganHoang10 (talk) 15:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Vandalism and disruptive editing are two different things. You should get familiar with both of them. Your disruption is the no. 1 point at WP:DISRUPTSIGNS – Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Please reconsider your approach if you want to continue making edits (I am sure that your edits are well intentioned, but do not ignore other editors). – sbaio 17:15, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
I’m trying to HELP, not HURT. It is all based on intent. I don’t know why I spend time editing when you do not appreciate what I have done… I’m trying to make Wikipedia a more accurate and better place. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
Plus I don’t ignore. I think you just didn’t @ me correctly. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
@ReaganHoang10: I do trust that you're trying to improve Wikipedia. However, one of the pillars of Wikipedia is Seek consensus, avoid edit wars... JAX4981 raised the concern that they don't believe consensus was reached on your changes regarding ordering of positions. Can you explain what are the objective criteria being applied for such changes? —Bagumba (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
There’s no rule against my preferred position order in the consensus. So technically it’s ok. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 23:55, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
@ReaganHoang10: While we're all encouraged to be bold, ultimately you need consensus for your changes. When people contest your edits, you'll need to establish support from others.—Bagumba (talk) 02:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
@ReaganHoang10: You have not established consensus for your changes in order of players' positions. I haven't seen an objective rationale presented either. Yet, you're still continuing with such unexplained changes, such as this edit at Kent Bazemore. Please stop in the absence of consensus. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 01:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Note: Notification of this discussion was left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association.—Bagumba (talk) 05:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Infobox for national teams

National basketball team articles use {{Infobox national basketball team}}; however, the rest of the basketball world, from Los Angeles Lakers to Real Madrid Baloncesto, uses {{Infobox basketball club}}. I propose that the {{Infobox national basketball team}} use {{Infobox basketball club}} as some sort of wrapper to standardize things.

I'm also proposing a similar change with {{Infobox college basketball team}}, as the other outlier in the basketball world. Ideally, all basketball clubs/teams should have the same look. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Consensus change demand

I want a consensus change. Period.

I want the player’s pages to show their MOST RECENT POSITION. Not their position from 2014 and shit.

In Andre Iguodala, he was listed as a shooting guard. Oh, buddy. He plays power forward now. Fuck, he could even play center now for goodness sake.

In DeMar DeRozan, shooting guard was listed as his FIRST position, even though he doesn’t even play shooting guard anymore. What year are we in? 2018? He’s a power forward now.

The consistency is just not there. It’s just not fucking there. If that player is retired I would understand, but for current players, the consistency is not there. User:JAX4981 said that if we put their most recent position, then might as well list LeBron James as a power forward as his primary position? It’s all about consistency. What I am talking about is that the starting lineup has to be consistent. So the Lakers starting lineup is:

PG - D'Angelo Russell SG - Austin Reaves SF - LeBron James PF - Jarred Vanderbilt / Rui Hachimura / Christian Wood C - Anthony Davis / Christian Wood

Now you realize that I left LeBron at SF right? Because he is starting at SF. Which is why I left him at SF.

Now let’s look at the Bulls projected starting lineup (without injuries): PG - Lonzo Ball SG - Alex Caruso SF - Zach LaVine PF - DeMar DeRozan C - Nikola Vucevic

Now you know why I listed DeMar DeRozan at power forward. It’s all about starting lineup consistency.

And regarding the three position rule, I’d rather have only two positions rather than have a VAGUE position in the infobox. It’s all about consistency. I’ve seen Wikipedia become inconsistent in the past, and I want to change that. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way excuse my language in that message. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
The 2 position question - which includes using “guard” or “forward” instead of the 2 specific positions plus a third - has already been decided and reaffirmed. That is not happening at this time regardless of how strongly you feel about it. As for the proposal on the table to use the most current position, I personally am open to it as long as we clarify the source of record for the position. NBA.com (or their current league whatever it is) is the only OFFICIAL source of listed positions, everything else is supporting. In your Iguodala example, the Warriors list him as a “guard/forward” so shooting guard is clearly one of the positions (he sure is not a pg). The issue is today players can play all 5 positions so often teams play with two SGs, no centers, all kinds of lineups so it is not as easy as looking at the 5 guys on the floor. NBA.com gives the OFFICIAL listings and those can be specified from there. Rikster2 (talk) 20:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Also, stop demanding. If you want the reach, viewership, others doing a lot of work on articles that Wikipedia brings, then it also brings consensus as the operating principle. If you want to call all the shots then go create your own NBA encyclopedia webpage, write all the articles, make all the decisions, have at it. If you can’t handle working collaboratively and knowing that sometimes things won’t go your way, then this may not be the place for you. Rikster2 (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
What are the proposed objective criteria for determining the "most recent position"? —Bagumba (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Regardless it’s weird to have two “primary shooting guards” in one starting lineup. It’d be weird if LeBron and AD were both PRIMARILY listed as a PF. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 06:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
As I've stated before, I oppose this. I believe that the position a player has played most/primarily in their career (or in certain cases like Tim Duncan, the position they are most known for or that they played during their prime) should go first. Positions can change all the time, and in an era of so-called "positionless basketball," I don't think it makes sense to change a player's position here on Wikipedia every time a starting lineup change is made. JAX4981 (talk) 22:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Just to understand the thought process in the proposal: say if Lebron is listed as a PG on the Lakers opening day line-up, we'd list him primarily as a PG on the infobox. Is that right? Howard the Duck (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Also, I went to NBA.com and tried to find out what Lebron's position is. His main player profile doesn't list it, and I'd have to go on the roster page and do a few more clicks to find out (he's listed as "Forward"); Scotty Pippen Jr. is listed as a "Guard/forward" (he's a "point guard" at his Wikipedia article). Who or how should we follow on this? Howard the Duck (talk) 04:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Only if he’s projected to play that position the entire season. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Okay we're now factoring "projections" or games that are not yet played into this. Is that right? Howard the Duck (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Where are you getting that Bulls lineup from? Lonzo Ball is expected to miss the next season entirely. I also think you're working with the assumption that teams must play a traditional PG-SG-SF-PF-C lineup, but the positions aren't that rigid. Zagalejo (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
I said the lineup WITHOUT INJURIES ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
But who is projecting this lineup in the first place? What source are you using to determine this? By the time Ball comes back, some of those other players may be gone. Ball may never come back at full strength. Zagalejo (talk) 11:49, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Idk man. We gotta find out the opening night lineup first and we’ll go from there. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 14:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Are you proposing that a player's "most recent"'position be based on future lineup projections? —Bagumba (talk) 14:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Yes. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 06:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
That's contrary to the WP:CRYSTAL policy:

Avoid predicted sports team line-ups, which are inherently unverifiable and speculative.

—Bagumba (talk) 06:15, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Violations of CRYSTAL, OWN, OR, and CIVIL all over the place in this proposal. The short story is there will never be any definitive, single source saying what specific position(s) a player should be listed as, especially as the sport is rapidly becoming positionless. This is a super weird hill to die on, and if only a fraction of this hostility and energy were directed at articles' expansions and creations, the project would be so much better off. SportsGuy789 (talk) 05:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Is “positionless basketball” just an excuse? It just is at this point. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 05:58, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
I have spent so much time making helpful and productive edits and this is how y’all pay me back… smh ReaganHoang10 (talk) 05:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

ReaganHoang10 is once again ignoring other editors and is edit warring. For example, at Jimmy Butler's page where Underbelly 50 restored the last stable version, but ReaganHoang10 just reverted to his preferred version. I have warned ReaganHoang10 for his continued behavior. – sbaio 06:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Muboshgu already warned them about edit warring in March 2023, so they should already be aware that edit warring is not acceptable. It seems they either do not understand or do not care about establishing consensus regarding player positions.—Bagumba (talk) 07:10, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
I’m talking about it right now?!? HELLO??? ReaganHoang10 (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I know y’all hate me, I get it, but this shit’s too far. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 15:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Bro I swear. This is why people say that Wikipedia is unreliable. I’m trying to fix this for y’all but y’all are just unappreciative like on God… ReaganHoang10 (talk) 16:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Y’all make it seem that y’all wanna antagonize me and make me an enemy of yours. I’m not usually like this, but now I am. And I will take this personally. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
You're not going to last a lot longer on Wikipedia, realistically. Your edit warring, lack of civility, lack of understanding how processes and collaboration works, lack of understanding basic tenets (in this discussion alone you literally stated you'd like to use a future event to edit a current fact), your hostility, your language, your tone, your bludgeoning of talk pages, your "demand" for consensus (pro tip: if you would like to cordially revisit a consensus discussion about something, maybe don't create a new section called "consensus change demand"), your feeling that you're "owed" something by contributing (you're here voluntarily, nobody will care if you disappear). If you continue to edit war and continue to push an agenda just because you don't like the lack of people agreeing with you, you will inevitably force editors to bring you to ANI and push for an extended block, if not a permanent one. It's a last resort on Wikipedia for sure, but it exists for a reason. SportsGuy789 (talk) 02:26, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Another unexplained edit by ReaganHoang10, this time at Kyle Kuzma seen here, changing "Power forward / small forward" to "Small forward / power forward". No consensus for these types of edits at #Positional order in infobox above. Even listed as "Power Forward and Small Forward" at https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01.html Seems like post at a noticeboard will be needed if this disruptive editing persists. A block or topic ban may be needed.—Bagumba (talk) 00:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Fine, I’ll stop. You be you, ok. Me be me. You win. I lose. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I’ve tried everything but I just couldn’t convince. I’m not gonna continue risking my happiness over something that’s not even that major. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Like, I’ll stop with the disruptive editing and all that, but if the infobox becomes extremely outdated then don’t cry to me to help you on that… Just sayin… ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
You win. I lose: Wikipedia is not a WP:BATTLEGROUND; we do rely on consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 02:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Ok I get it ReaganHoang10 (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Yolanda Griffith

There is a claim on Yolanda Griffith's article that she is considered one of the greatest rebounders and defensive players in the history of Women's Basketball. Now, that may very well be true but the only source in the article stating so comes from a qoute from the coach who had just signed her. I was unable to find any other reliable sources that confirm that claim so I took it out only for it to be reverted by an ip user. Has anyone here seen a source that can be used to back up this claim or is it unfounded? Alvaldi (talk) 09:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Category:African-American basketball players AfD

Chime in at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 2#Category:African-American basketball players if you have an opinion on it. Rikster2 (talk) 18:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Issues with content at Franklin Bulls

Hi. I wanted to reach out here to see if anyone would be willing to help me deal with the content at Franklin Bulls. There has been a mass explosion of content at the page since September by an IP. The editor claims to be closely linked to the team, so the content is heavily written from a fan's point of view. It is also poorly sourced and lacks encyclopaedic focus. I raised my concerns recently at the IP's talk page [3] but my message and plea has been ignored. I would be grateful if someone else could intervene as I have already made previous reverts [4] [5] [6]. Any further advice or direction would also be appreciated. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@DaHuzyBru: Most of it has to go. In addition, the same IP editor butchered the New Zealand men's national basketball team page. And looking by interactions on the talk page (including the block for vandalizing the Basketball at the Summer Olympics page) it is evident that this is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE. – sbaio 11:41, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Other options are to place appropriates tags from Wikipedia:Template index/Cleanup, and have a discussion on the article talk page. Ultimately, per WP:ONUS:

The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

—Bagumba (talk) 14:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
I have posted at Talk:Franklin Bulls and tagged the page as suggested. I have also reached out to the IP again informing them about the talk page post. If other's wished to provide comments at the talk page, that would be much appreciated. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Power forward

Since this article has been moved is there someone who can get a bot to convert att the instances of “power forward (basketball)” to “power forward?” There are hundreds of instances. Rikster2 (talk) 13:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

You can try WP:BOTREQ.—Bagumba (talk) 17:38, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
They said no go and I don’t give enough of a shit to make this a priority Rikster2 (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
Someone with WP:AWB can do this. I've used it many times before, but I can't install it now in my device. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 20:40, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Dab for referees

So looking at Category:National Basketball Association referees, there are referees who have the (basketball) dab, while some have the (referee) dab. What should be the standard disambiguator to use? Dieter Lloyd Wexler 05:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd say (basketball) per WP:NCSP:

When there are multiple people with the same name, and one of them is notable in basketball, disambiguate that person using (basketball). Example: Anthony Bennett (basketball)

If there is say a basketball player and a basketball referee by the same name, then the guideline seems to imply that (basketball referee) should be used, thought there is an argument to use the simpler (referee).—Bagumba (talk) 09:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Overtime Elite

Hello. I was trying to update current rosters on the Overtime Elite page. There have been 5 additional teams added to the league. I was wondering if someone could help me with the colors for the roster boxes, so they match the team colors? Thanks.

--Bankrupt305 (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Plural changes to List of Champions tables (again)

Circling back to this topic from June 2022. A user has changed Champion > Champions and Runner-up > Runners-up at List of New Zealand NBL champions. Can we agree on a consensus here, plural or not plural. It was stated last year they should reflect the data that is in an individual cell. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Mate, in Commonwealth English, sports teams are always considered to be plural nouns. For example, a championship-winning basketball team is made of 12 (or more) individual champions, therefore, they (as a team) are the league champions.
Source: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/are-names-of-sports-teams-and-bands-singular-or-plural/ 2001:8003:9100:2C01:B87C:9468:B08E:B809 (talk) 10:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
How sports teams are considered is not the question. Your argument doesn't seem to be in line with what I am raising here. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that has nothing to do with how table column headers relate to individual cells. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, since we are listing a bunch of plural nouns in the table, I don’t see any reason why the column header shouldn't be a plural noun too. 58.160.77.124 (talk) 14:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
As the only other person who commented at the previous thread, I'll state that it was from an AmE perspective. I don't know enough about Commonwealth English. FWIW, there's plurals at List of English football champions.—Bagumba (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Famous(?) Ukrainian player killed?

See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ukraine#Viktor_Kobzystyi_-_famous_baseball_player? (basketball, not baseball...). Needs an article or redirect, presumably. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Invitational tournaments in professional players' infoboxes

Lately, it was news that Dwight Howard will play for a Philippine team in a Dubai invitational. His stint is by itself "professional" (he's paid), but the league/tournament itself isn't (I might say kinda similar to William Jones Cup?) Should we add these teams in players' infoboxes now? Previously, it wasn't done before. Hasheem Thabeet for example played for Mighty Sports during the 2017 Dubai Tourney but it's not added to his infobox. I could just boldly revert the update on Howard's article, but I started a discussion anyway cos I feel like I might get reverted. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 23:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

If a team actively participates in a "home league", I suppose its players playing on it has to be in an infobox, provided they played at least one game. I suppose this team doesn't play in a league that I know of, and was just kind of thrown in altogether, so by my definition, any of the players won't be listed in the infobox.
There's another case where a team participates in more than one tournament concurrently, and has a slightly different set of players for each one: for example, should Diamond Stone be listed as a Meralco Bolts member when he solely played in the 2018 FIBA Asia Champions Cup, and not in the 2018 PBA Governors' Cup? Howard the Duck (talk) 12:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I assume what Jeremy Lin's infobox has about the Dongguan Leopards (at the ABA Club Championship) in 2011 is similar? If nobody make a case for it, remove it (WP:ONUS). I have less of an issue if it's only short sourced prose.—Bagumba (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, if it is an official club competition (cup or league) run or sanctioned by a national governing body or FIBA (i.e FIBA Asia Champions Cup) then the players stint should be mentioned in the infobox. If the player only appeared in pre-season games or un-official competitions then it should not. Alvaldi (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
This is what I am agreeing with. If it is a tournament sactioned by FIBA (e.g. FIBA Asia Champions Cup or FIBA West Asia Super League) or a tournament involving qualified, not invited, professional teams that are champions in their respective countries (e.g. East Asia Super League), add it in the infobox. Otherwise, do not add (e.g. William Jones Cup and this Dubai Invitational). Dieter Lloyd Wexler 23:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Patrick Cole

If anyone can find info on his pro career beyond the 2017–18 season, please correct this article. All I could find was that he played for KB Prishtina that year; no other teams or leagues since (ProBallers, Eurobasket, etc.). Couldn't even find a general life update on the guy, so I updated his infobox as retired, but I'm not 100% confident about it. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a stint with a BIH team in 2018 per RealGM and Proballers. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 00:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Dean Smith

Dean Smith has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm Talk 02:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Lingerie Basketball League

I was trying to understand the pageview spike for Joanne McCarthy (basketball). I ran across an ESPN article showing that she is participating in the Lingerie Basketball League, which is a league WP says has been defunct for over a decade. Any idea how to handle this league in a bio and infobox?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The ESPN article appears to be from 2011. It shouldn't be in the infobox any more than other independent minor recreational leagues. Alvaldi (talk) 14:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
The search result that I had showed a 2022 date and that lines up with the viewership spike. Also it has to be after 2016, which is the date of the other source I just added.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
That date in the search result is wrong. The article links to a TMZ video from 2011 as a source. Alvaldi (talk) 07:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
I am not sure what to believe because of the August 2022 pageview spike that would be consistent with newfound lingerie league "fame" at about that time.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:28, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Definitely not the lingerie league as that one seems to have barely lasted one "season" (it was just a few games played in August 2011 as far as I can tell, and the article is from August 1, 2011). But you are right, the pageview spike is very strange considering she hasn't been in the news for well over a decade. Then again, it could just be an overflow from her more famous relatives, Jenny McCarthy and Melissa McCarthy, as she is listed in their infoboxes. Alvaldi (talk) 19:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Neither of them had a pageview spike. So I remain convinced that something is causing the spike. And that something is exactly correlated with the date of this ESPN story that is the suggested when i put JoJo McCarthy in google.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:31, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
An explanation for the spike is that the Joanne McCarthy (basketball) article was moved from Joanne McCarthy in August 2022. Prior to that, the article under its original name was regularly receiving over 20,000 views per month. The mystery remains as to why her page is so popular. CalDoesIt (talk) 13:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Does she have a big social media following? Maybe a social media profile linked to the Wikipedia page. I really think Google's date for the ESPN article is an error. Zagalejo (talk) 13:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
The Google date is an error. Scroll down this archive from 2011 and it is there, dated August 1, 2011. And as CalDoesIt points out, the article was moved in August 2022 which makes it seem that there was a big spike then while the reality is she has been getting this traffic for years, probably because there is a link to her article the infoboxes of her more famous relatives. Alvaldi (talk) 14:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Note

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_Dinamo_Bucure%C8%99ti_(basketball)

Basket-related users should check what is going on with "players section" here, too long story of admins doing things without minimum knowledge 😒 93.138.236.233 (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Awards in infobox

I’d like to ask for a consensus discussion on what should NOT be included in the basketball biography infobox. Specifically I would like to recommend that common practice be codified in the template documentation as we are seeing a LOT of “scope creep.” Recommended wording:

the following types of achievements are not listed in the infobox, but may be included in the prose if desired:

  • Preseason awards
  • All-Tournament designations (MVP awards for significant tournaments can be included)
  • Player of the week or month
  • Awards from publications or websites if not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body (example, a specific newspaper player of the year)

Rikster2 (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

This seems to have been the de facto practice for NBA-related bios, until the recent NBA In-Season Tournament e.g. Anthony Davis currently has its all-tournament team in his infobox. —Bagumba (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Some user made a point of adding all the FIBA World Cup all-tournament honors it’s ridiculous. Also, if the NBA in season follows the same convention we use in college, even the MVP or winning it would not be included. We don’t do that for the Maui Invitational. Rikster2 (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree with the preseason awards, player of the week/month awards and awards from publications that is not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body. I don't agree wholy with the tournament part. For instance, the FIBA World Cup is a major international competition held by the governing body of basketball and coming from a part of the world where it is held in pretty high regards I must say it stings more than a little to see the inclusion of its all-tournament awards in a players list of major achievements called ridiculous. My opinion is that tournament awards from major competitions should be included while awards from minor tournaments should not, for example tournaments held by a non-governing league/body such as the Maui Invitational. Alvaldi (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
FIBA Basketball World Cup All-Tournament Team would be more compelling if the page could be supported by independent reliable sources and demonstrated to meet WP:LISTN. —Bagumba (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Ridiculous might have been too strong a word, but it’s too much. If you go look at the All-World Cup list, a good portion of the players who have been named already have incredibly long lists of achievements, you have to draw lines somewhere. All-Final Four (NCAA) is a similar honor, but we’ve never included that. Rikster2 (talk) 12:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
My comment on the Maui Invitational was aimed at the NBA in-season tournament. We don’t even know if that will have any long-term significance (much like the NBA bubble tournament a couple years ago) Rikster2 (talk) 12:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
It makes sense to limit the lists when they get to long, for instance for Luka Dončić. But from my perspective, an All-Team award from a major international tournament ranks alot higher than for instance the EB Next Generation Tournament MVP (youth award) or the Bundesliga Best German Young Player award that Dennis Schröder has listed in his article.
For some players, their biggest career highlight might being named to an NCAA All-Final Four team and in that case my opinion is that it is fine to list it in the infobox. However, if the player has a long list of other major achievements then maybe it is better to move the lesser ones to a list in the article. But relegating World Cup awards below for instance American high school awards is something I can't in good conscience agree to. (Shawn Kemp, who made the 1994 World Championship team, has six achievements listed in his infobox, four of them are high school awards, including a Fourth-team Parade All-American award.) Alvaldi (talk) 13:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I guess I look at it differently - an honor should be shown on the infobox or not. If a player has zero “infobox worthy” achievements then so be it, it certainly can be addressed in the prose of the article. The problem is that if one player shows (for example) “All World Cup” then some editor will come and add it to every other player who achieved it because there is lack of clarity if it should be included or not. We can discuss other items that shouldn’t be on there - some you mention are out of place on my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
As for high school, originally we only listed McDonalds or Parade All-American and state Mr. Basketball. Somehow things have been added and added to the infobox. It is the kind of scope creep that o worry about if we are not explicit about criteria Rikster2 (talk) 18:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Just to put something out there (I'm probably forgetting something). I know you don't agree with all of it, but its a start.
What to include:
Awards
  • Official league and cup awards (i.e. MVP, DPoY, Team of the Year, National Cup MVP)
  • FIBA awards from major international (Olympics, World Cup) and the four continental championships (EuroBasket, AfroBasket, AmeriCup, Asia Cup)
  • College awards (this is probably more of your expertise. Would have to take into count college leagues outside of the United States, such as the Philippines)
  • Major junior/high school awards (I honestly don't see alot of these listed in the navbox, outside of the three you mention above)
  • Awards from publications recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body
  • National Sportsperson of the Year awards (for example Slovenian Sportsperson of the Year)
  • Official anniversary teams (for example NBA 75th Anniversary Team or EuroLeague Basketball 2010–20 All-Decade Team)
Titles
  • League championships (FIBA sanctioned leagues and tournaments and stand-alone professional leagues)
  • Official cups (FIBA sanctioned national cups, super cups, stand-alone professional cups)
  • College titles (national titles at least)
What not to include:
  • Preseason awards
  • Player of the week or month awards
  • Awards from publications or websites if not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body (example, a specific newspaper player of the year or Eurobasket.com awards)
  • Awards and titles from (minor?) stand-alone or friendly competitions run by clubs, colleges or minor sport organisations.
I would suggest adding something like If the achievements list gets too cluttered, an editorial decision can be made to trim lesser awards from the list but I wouldn't make a fuzz if it isn't. Alvaldi (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
FIBA titles (eg those that are actually sponsored by FIBA) should not be listed as bullets in the infobox, they are in the relevant medal table below the bulleted list. Rikster2 (talk) 22:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Absolutely correct, I should've clarified better that I was referring to club competitions (both league and cup), such as the Basketball Champions League, not national team competitions. The wording could be changed to something along the lines of Club leagues and tournaments sanctioned by FIBA or a nations governing basketball body or stand-alone professional leagues. That is, FIBA run club competitions, national leagues run by a sanctioned national governing body (such as the German Basketball Federation) and stand-alone professional leagues (EuroLeague, the original ABA etc.)
Two other things that maybe should be addressed and I've sometimes seen added to the achievement lists are The Basketball Tournament and 3x3 competitions such as the Big3. Personally I don't add them but I don't have any hard stance on the matter other than its teams should not be listed in the career history of the infobox. Alvaldi (talk) 08:12, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Support excluding all-tournament, even for FIBA, unless there's evidence of independent coverage esp. non-routine coverage that is mentioned months/years after the event.—Bagumba (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Such coverage for the FIBA awards would probably mostly be in non-english sources (or at least non-American sources), but there is some evidence out there in english sources. This 2023 article covering Caloy Loyzaga talks about his 1954 all-tournament award. I'm going to see if I can find more. Alvaldi (talk) 11:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
There's no requirement that sources are in English. However, the question would be whether they are reliable. Google picks up a lot of bloggy and unreliable sites, even in English, that most of us would not readily be able to filter. —Bagumba (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
To clarify, I was referring to the sources availability. As you have probably experienced, it is much easier to source American college players from several decades ago than for example a European professional player, simply because newspapers sources are much more readily available online. However, I picked another one from an english speaking country, New Zealands Pero Cameron, and his all-tournament selection in 2002 is still being covered 20 years later [7][8] Alvaldi (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Here is a 2014 article that mentions several players performances in the World Championships/Cup and their inclusion in the All-tournament teams over a span of several decades. Another one from 2023 that speaks of Oscar Schmidt being named to the All-tournament team in his World Championship debut in 1978 and also names the four other that were selected. At a glance, there seems to be several sources that are independent of the subjects that mention their all-tournaments selections even decades later. Alvaldi (talk) 13:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Support excluding all-tournament per Rikster2 and Alvadi. That can and should go in prose. At some point, the honors/awards/championships section needs to be formally restricted to only the most relevant, major, and defining of one's career. All-tournament (college, pro, and international) are not it. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I actually support including all-tournament awards, at least in the World Championship/Cup, as the sources I presented above show that the players WC All-Tournament awards are being covered decades later, which sounds like a career defining award. Alvaldi (talk) 19:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: There is an NBA-specific discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association § In-season tournament in player's infobox for the NBA in-season tourney.—Bagumba (talk) 03:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

1972 Olympic men's basketball final information

This article speculates on why Bill Walton did not participate on the 1972 USA Olympic team. During the broadcast of the 2024 January 27 USC-UCLA Men's Basketball game, Bill Walton was asked about the 1972 team, and he provided the explanation that he had been willing to join the team, but that he was required to do a full try-out, which he declined to do. Kenyeret (talk) 03:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

An archive of the broadcast would need to be available (WP:PUBLISHED), and a timestamp of the quote would be needed (e.g. see {{cite AV media}}. Alternatively, if a reliable source deemed it notable, it might be mentioned somewhere later in print. —Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 McDonald's All-American Girls Game articles

Just letting it be known that the only players with articles right now are going to Michigan. #GoBlue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Heh, that's an interesting observation! -- Zanimum (talk) 03:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
I was trying to motivate some other schools to get going.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2021 MPBL Finals#Requested move 3 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2021 MPBL Finals#Requested move 3 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. BilledMammal (talk) 11:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Naming for a merged category, team in two locations?

Hello: Category:Brampton A's players and Category:Orangeville A's players should probably be merged. Same team, different venue, only four seasons between them both. But which name does the category go under? Or perhaps Category:Brampton A's and Orangeville A's players? -- Zanimum (talk) 03:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

They should not be merged, the consensus is that distinct franchise names each have their on category. See Category:Sacramento Kings players and Category:Kansas City Kings players. The top level category should be whatever the last name for the franchise was. Rikster2 (talk) 18:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Youth EuroBasket

FIBA recently rebranded the youth European championships (click here for list of 2024 tournaments) so I would like to rename the following articles:

Can I do it? Will there be any problems with that? Please write your opinion. Thanks, Maiō T. (talk) 12:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

We usually keep it at the name when the tournament was held, but if there's enough evidence to convince that all previous events will follow the new name, that should be used. I suppose let's wait to see how sources name the old ones and go from there. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
@Howard the Duck I don't think that Maio is asking to move all the articles of previous editions, just the articles of the tournament itself as a whole (like moving FIBA Asia Championship to FIBA Asia Cup after rebranding).
@Maiō T. I don't see a problem with you moving it. It would be better if you can add to the prose (with source) that the tournament has been rebranded. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 17:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Empire State Games

I am trying to find out if there is a way to find rosters for the Empire State Games basketball competition. I have recently created a page for Gary Bossert who is remembered for two important shooting streaks and elevating the level of play of his teams to pull of upsets at both the high school and college level. I am fairly certain he would have been the point guard for the 1982 17&U West New York team that upset the New York City team. The details I have for that competition are in the Curtis Aiken article because he got most of the press for the victory. I am trying to find out if Bossert was the point guard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:42, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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